Curse

Washi · Jan 18, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

The only thing you cannot cheap out on are skills, for yourself and heroes.

Hero skills are free, IF you play pvp ofcourse

Red Sonya · Jan 18, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

When I think about it now I have five characters with full maxed out heroes (that I use) on every one of them including superior runes of vigor on most now. Starting over for me would be very boring an unfun. It's nice to be rich.

But, we all were poor once and we all made it to wealth I would believe. The game isn't meant to be played in a day anyways. I really believe that the developers intended us to play areas over again even during the storyline because of unique weapons to be aquired from boss mobs along the way that are useable by our main characters an even hour heroes. Of course when Prophecies first came out there weren't green weapons, but, now there are aplenty and I believe they are part of the mission goal and storyline as well now. So, just going from A to Z is really bypassing the intentions of the game now as it offers up much more than just collectors items. I'm still after a sceptor in Kourna for my curse necro and I'm not going to move on until that npc drops it for me.

zwei2stein · Jan 18, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

I see couple of problems with this:

a) you don't reflect how game is played by newbies because you want to reflect how game was intended to play (silly rule like having ot have equipment on par with area taken). Refusing to play with underequiped heroes is kinda ridiculous.

b) you don't have clear focus - are you playing to determine whether newbie can get basics? Are you determining if one can max PvE char? are you determining if one can create PvP-ready pve char? Because you are doing lots of WTF stuff:

* Superior monk and fire runes on heroes, Major vigors, etc. Spending on heroes like drunken sailor.
* Superior HP rune for self
* Buying secondary skills you are not really using
* You subscribed to some gold sinks (Keys).

Red Sonya · Jan 18, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Lol zewi2stein you didn't cut him any slack did you? hahahaha

Caged Fury · Jan 18, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I had a go at this kind of experiment not too long ago. I just wanted to see how much I could make without farming and playing the bare minimum. I started a Sin in Factions, and a paragon in NF. I made sure that:

- I didn't access storage;
- picked up all drops which were either salvaged for crafting materials or sold to merchants;
- equipment and runes for myself and heroes were salvaged from drops (no buying from trader or other players);
- upgraded my armor only when I needed to and can afford to;
- used full team throughout;
- used monestary credits and whatnot to trade for id and salvage kits.
- purchased skills I felt that I really needed, most skills heroes needed were already unlocked by other chars.

The only farming of sorts I did was with my Sin when I jumped to Kamaden to get the early heroes to level them up. Didn't do SS/LB rank farming for my Paragon, unless it was needed to progress the story.

For each char, I just did the primary quest/missions. Got protector title for each char for their continent. They finished ill-equiped, that is, no max weapons (or max mods) and not fully runed up.

Sin completed Factions with less than 20K, and Paragon finished NF with less than 60K (this would include all the free treasure chests).

arcanemacabre · Jan 18, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

I've been considering doing an experiment like this with my alternate account, which currently has Prophecies and Nightfall and only the starter skills. Might be a good way to try it because of the limitations. I'm betting that getting the skills is going to be the most expensive part. Equipment for heroes? Well, there is collectors for the weapons/off-hands, and they don't really need runes. Also, hidden treasures will be giving me really nice stuff the first time through.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I see couple of problems with this:

a) you don't reflect how game is played by newbies because you want to reflect how game was intended to play (silly rule like having ot have equipment on par with area taken). Refusing to play with underequiped heroes is kinda ridiculous.

The problem with playing under-equiped is that there is no line in the sand you can draw as to what is appropriately equiped means. A number of other posters have raised the same point. If I had performed the experiment according to what I needed to get by, all it would have demonstrated was that the cost of establishing a character is inversely proportionate to the player's ability - I tried to create an objective baseline from which extrapolations could be made. If you think a major vigs are too much for heroes, subtract 6k from the total and you've got your result and so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

b) you don't have clear focus - are you playing to determine whether newbie can get basics? Are you determining if one can max PvE char? are you determining if one can create PvP-ready pve char?

I'm aimed to create a "PvE ready" toon. One that can swap to any "reasonable" build on demand and have appropriately spec'ed equipment to match. During the experiment I didn't actually achieve this, having nowhere near enough skills or equipment sets, in hindsight its not surprising - it took me the better part of 3 campaigns to get my warrior to that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Because you are doing lots of WTF stuff:
* Superior monk and fire runes on heroes, Major vigors, etc. Spending on heroes like drunken sailor.

Running superior runes on heroes suits my playstyle as it lets me use the the fact that the ai will target them to shepherd the red-dots into bodyblocks, and in most cases the superior rune is actually cheaper than the minor due to the fact that most people are opting for higher hp these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

* Superior HP rune for self

Not seeing the WTF here. Sup vigor is basic equipment for any toon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

* Buying secondary skills you are not really using

Didn't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

* You subscribed to some gold sinks (Keys).

As stated in the blog, these were required due to a lack of a weapon mod merchant that upgrades could be purchased from. If I hadn't the game would have been finished without even having upgraded equipment.

Estic · Jan 18, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

I think the confusion in the post starts here (bolded part is mine).

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

In the weeks following the loot scaling update, I'd often heard people say that just playing the game normally gave a player enough money to get by on the basics. By contrast, I'd often find myself farming just to be able to afford skills and I often hear others say the same.

As indicated by your later posts, you define basics as:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm aimed to create a "PvE ready" toon. One that can swap to any "reasonable" build on demand and have appropriately spec'ed equipment to match. During the experiment I didn't actually achieve this, having nowhere near enough skills or equipment sets, in hindsight its not surprising - it took me the better part of 3 campaigns to get my warrior to that point.

Whereas I (and it seems more people do this) define basics as being able to finish the game. So I guess we are both right. It's impossible to get a toon PvE ready from just fully finishing a campaign (as you said it took your warrior 3 campaigns). But it's more than doable to get all of the equipment to finish the game.

Karia Mirniman · Jan 18, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I see couple of problems with this:

a) you don't reflect how game is played by newbies because you want to reflect how game was intended to play (silly rule like having ot have equipment on par with area taken). Refusing to play with underequiped heroes is kinda ridiculous.

b) you don't have clear focus - are you playing to determine whether newbie can get basics? Are you determining if one can max PvE char? are you determining if one can create PvP-ready pve char? Because you are doing lots of WTF stuff:

* Superior monk and fire runes on heroes, Major vigors, etc. Spending on heroes like drunken sailor.
* Superior HP rune for self
* Buying secondary skills you are not really using
* You subscribed to some gold sinks (Keys).

Newer players do not have past experience to tell them what to do. Many players put superior runes on everything; believe that max weapons and armours are a necessity, buy keys and every useless skill available. And don't forget skills increase in cost the more that are bought.

Far too many players understand that loot scaling is damaging Guild Wars.

Some real facts on this from A-net would be welcome. But anything factual from that source, which may help the community, is like rocking horse pooh.

Cellardwellar; It’s very good that you made the effort to clarify this.

Kook~NBK~ · Jan 18, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

[list][*]No player to player trade

This rule really skewed you're final total. Player to player trade is a game mechanic used by everyone, including new players. You can get anything that the traders have - runes, materials, etc. for much less than the merchant prices. Conversly, the NPC traders will not pay as much for items (dyes, etc.) as will players. That would have saved you a significant amount.

Edit: just peeked at your list. Superior salvage kits? Why? they cost 25% more to use than Expert salvage kits. (20g per use vs 16g per use) That, and a few other things makes it seem that you were being very economical going through things.

arcanemacabre · Jan 18, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with playing under-equiped is that there is no line in the sand you can draw as to what is appropriately equiped means. A number of other posters have raised the same point. If I had performed the experiment according to what I needed to get by, all it would have demonstrated was that the cost of establishing a character is inversely proportionate to the player's ability - I tried to create an objective baseline from which extrapolations could be made. If you think a major vigs are too much for heroes, subtract 6k from the total and you've got your result and so on.

The problem is that a lot of a newbie making money is linked to how quickly that player learns and becomes skilled. They still need to be able to "play through the game," which does take some amount of skill, and some trading skills to figure out what things are worth and take advantage of the occasional lucky drop. There really isn't much of a baseline involved here because everyone has different levels of skill. The more skilled/intelligent will likely make a lot more money quicker than the less skilled/intelligent.

The best baseline to figure out how much money is possible to make is not purchasing anything, except for max armor/items/cheapest runes for the job, and nothing for the heroes. Hell, if need be, take henchmen instead. There's your baseline. No buying skills, not even cap sigs (there are quests to get 2 free ones). Whatever money you have by the time you beat a campaign can then be used to buy stuff, and you can then find out what you can buy to make yourself, and even your heroes, "PvE ready."

MoriaOrc · Jan 18, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

For this complaint:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Edit: just peeked at your list. Superior salvage kits? Why? they cost 25% more to use than Expert salvage kits. (20g per use vs 16g per use) That, and a few other things makes it seem that you were being very economical going through things.

Like he said, he got salvage & ID kits from the quest reward items (Kournan Coin, Imperial Comendation, etc). When you're doing it that way, Sup Salvage Kits are a much better deal. They cost 5 reward items, compared to 3 reward items for the regular salvage kit. They are also the most valuable thing you can usually trade for a quest reward item.

(More general comments on the original post)
Most new players are using pretty sub-par equipment. They do this as much because they don't necessarily know what to get yet (as far as runes, insignias, mods), as that they are cutting corners by using mostly dropped items. I remember "back in the day" I would only ever use the runes I found, and would sell the more valuable ones (like the better vigor runes). On the other hand, runes were a lot more valuable when I was a newbie, and good runes like Superior (and even major) vigor were well beyond the price range of most normal players.

The biggest concern I have is that you said you switched to only noting major sources of income, like the free chests. I know I usually make quite a bit off the merch fodder. Often times when I fill my backpack on an outing (quest, skill cap, mission, etc) and merch everything, I'll have made about a plat. It's not a trivial amount of money at all, and should be tracked.

I do agree with your conclusion about starting up new characters. My new characters usually end up "in debt" (they've cost me more money then they've made) around the time that they get their max armors and first complete skill bar, though they become somewhat self sustaining not too long after that, and begin generating more income then they are taking.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

The best baseline to figure out how much money is possible to make is not purchasing anything, except for max armor/items/cheapest runes for the job, and nothing for the heroes. Hell, if need be, take henchmen instead. There's your baseline. No buying skills, not even cap sigs (there are quests to get 2 free ones). Whatever money you have by the time you beat a campaign can then be used to buy stuff, and you can then find out what you can buy to make yourself, and even your heroes, "PvE ready."

That figure can be determined from the data if you desire it: 144,655

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

This rule really skewed you're final total. Player to player trade is a game mechanic used by everyone, including new players. You can get anything that the traders have - runes, materials, etc. for much less than the merchant prices. Conversly, the NPC traders will not pay as much for items (dyes, etc.) as will players. That would have saved you a significant amount.

Disagree with this whole heartedly. I personally only ever used player to player trading for trading anything worth less than 100k even back in the day when 100k was a lot of money and certainly have never sold anything to a player that could have been given to a trader. The extra 10% that you might get is never worth the hour it takes you to sell it.

Regulus X · Jan 18, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Loot-Scaling (For The Loss). Anet dried up gold so bad and yet boosted their ebay prices so that anet's profiting more from it. Does this not make sense to anyone? Let me explain it in simple terms: "They're banking off of YOU." Anet has a long list of things they don't care about, and making money is definitely NOT one of them. Drying up gold for players (on the other hand) and making them go bankrupt (unfortunately) IS on their "don't care" list. It's standard sharking, well-known in the business of money-making. For those that don't care about being broke in-game, good on you, and for those that do, prices on ebay only go one way (...UP!).

*The above statement reflects a mere opinion and should not be taken personal in any way... So don't /wrists on me please xD*

arcanemacabre · Jan 18, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

That figure can be determined from the data if you desire it: 144,655

Well, knowing that, do you know how much it would cost to deck you and your heroes out and made "PvE ready?" That would get your real answer.

quickmonty · Jan 18, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I started my first character in Prophecies, over two years ago (no heroes at that time). I struggled paying for better armor, but I managed to have armor that was good enough to keep me going. I survived off of what dropped. No other source of income. As I got further along things got easier.

All subsequent characters had things waiting in the storage vault when they got to post-searing.

In summary I would say 'You can survive just playing the game'.

To OP: Good job on actually doing this as an experiment.

hallomik · Jan 18, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

I did not read through all the details, but my understanding of the overall conclusion is that if you equip your characters and heroes with max weapons and best runes at the point in the game where that is needed, you will not be able to fund that through normal gameplay.

You say you will craft a weapon or offhand as needed for a hero if no drop occurs prior to the point you need it. Crafted weapons cost 5000g plus mats.

You say you did not engage in trading as external factors affect the price of things and then merched everything else.

I assume that means you occasionally got max item drops you had to merch because you already had that particular item equipped across your character and heroes.

Here is a concern with the overall methodology. If we assume that the average price (player-to-player) of a max gold weapon/offhand is less than 5000 gold - which it is - that means you could have purchased your hero items for lower prices and saved money. If we assume that max golds go for more than 5000 gold, you could have easily sold the excess max gold items for a good profit and offset some of your costs. By ignoring player to player trading and crafting things you needed, you inflated your costs regardless of whether the unpredictable market was high or low.

That is, if prices are low, you spent too much on crafting and if prices are high, you merched stuff at a tremendous loss. It so happens that prices are low, so crafting items is a money waster.

I'm not totally sure how you could have kept your experiment fair given that different market conditions would have saved you different amounts of money, but I would say there is a built-in bias to things costing more than they would for the average player in your analysis.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Well, knowing that, do you know how much it would cost to deck you and your heroes out and made "PvE ready?" That would get your real answer.

For me - about 1.5M

, for others probably less. That was the point in having full disclosure of expenditures within the blog - so people could adapt it as necessary.

Chrono Re delle Ere · Jan 18, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Very nice experiment...I can just say that nowadays I am making a new character, a paragon; I'm totally exploring every area I visit , doing always master missions and I had like 15k cash at venta cemetery, without ferryes and all. You cannot pimp too much your char, but you can provide him what he needs.

Kook~NBK~ · Jan 18, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoriaOrc

Like he said, he got salvage & ID kits from the quest reward items (Kournan Coin, Imperial Comendation, etc). When you're doing it that way, Sup Salvage Kits are a much better deal. They cost 5 reward items, compared to 3 reward items for the regular salvage kit. They are also the most valuable thing you can usually trade for a quest reward item.

I had forgotten about that. I retract my statement regarding the use of Superior kits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Disagree with this whole heartedly. I personally only ever used player to player trading for trading anything worth less than 100k even back in the day when 100k was a lot of money and certainly have never sold anything to a player that could have been given to a trader. The extra 10% that you might get is never worth the hour it takes you to sell it.

Ahhh, but you're looking at this through jaded eyes. Look at it from the perspective of a new player, starting from scratch, which is what I presumed you were attempting to show. 100k is a lot of money for a newbie & every bit of gold helps. And you're 10% estimate is very, very low. For example (don't have time to give a rundown on all the stuff), in player to player trade, Common crafting materials generally sell for twice what the merchant/trader will give for them, and cost half as much. As far as time spent goes, that's more of an issue for farmers, not newbies playing through the first time.